133 thoughts on “POV: Well Then!

  1. I wonder if this person is even english, let alone the owner of a phd, since anyone knows oxford and london are an hours drive away from one another. If she really had oxbridge qualifications she would have started by quoting the college, then the university.

    1. I would love to see the consequence if anyone mailed this to Trystan.
      Anyone who thinks that gowns were backlaced in the 18th century should be forced to wear a shirt that buttons entirely in the back.And shoes that cover the top of the foot and lace at the soles.And trousers that have to be unbuttoned in the back to access the front.The reason people defend back lacing on women’s gowns in the 18th century is because they are utterly ignorant of it.No anglaise or full sleeved gown was ever back laced.21st century doesn’t seem to comprehend the fact that people weren’t fools back then-can we name a single occasion when any modern man wore a tuxedo with the coat buttoning in the back,unless the occasion was Met Gala?Apart from grand robe de cour bodices,only late 18th century soft unboned corsages(sometimes spelled corsets)had back lacing but they they were sleeveless and then a short jacket over it-like the lilac robe de cour bodice that Kendra herself made inspired from a fashion magazine.Women’s hunting ensemble waistcoats(again sleeveless)too had back lacing but of course they were menswear inspired and covered with long coats.It is not too hard a concept to understand that a jacket closes in front because it is supposed to shut there.There were some back lacing Prussian and Austrian robes,but why would any normal lady in France or England wear those unless she was an super rich aristocrat.Besides those robes were courtwear and court robes were like uniforms,not just fashion.Which is why English mantuas,French robe de cours,Prussian robe “allemandes” and Russian court robes with decidedly rounder skirts and comparatively barrel shaped(not with a cuirass front)bodices existed with sharp differences,not just bodice-skirt ensembles.Atleast in those times,the mix and match was seen as mixing with the enemy(people saw foreign fashions as vain and tried not to be influenced by them in court settings to avoid scandals.Marie Antoinette wasn’t criticised all for nothing-her fashions were seen as different from French protocol)unless when done by rich for sheer decadence of fashion.

      1. My assumption is that back-lacing helps for dressing the actresses — it’s more size adjustable, especially if you put a placket under there. But then filmmakers should just admit that’s why they’re doing it and not try to defend its accuracy. If it ain’t stays or a court bodice, it closes in front in the 18th century.

    2. She didn’t use the full name of the school: Bubba’s Oxford Sewing for Fun and Profit Institute in London. Arkansas.

      The PhD is a Post-hole Digger

  2. Bravo! What a marvelous post! I love the scope of research that goes into this site, and any excuse to dive into old posts and read them again.

    This person reminds me of one of my favorite movie quotes:

    “She’s one of those third year girls who gripe my liver…You know, American college kids. They come over here to take their third year and lap up a little culture…They’re officious and dull. They’re always making profound observations they’ve overheard.” –An American in Paris

    1. I love that you are quoting one of my favorite movies to sum up the writer of this ridiculous letter. I really need to watch American in Paris again!

  3. Wow! Maybe she should just stay away from the site until she can criticize in a civilized manner instead of coming across like a spoiled toddler. We know you’re not perfect–who is?–but we’re happy to have you keep doing what you do.

  4. She (or maybe even he) lost me right at the start. That first sentence is wrong in so many ways. As Opusanglicanum says Oxford and London are two completely different places and no-one who has studied at Oxford at any level would refer to it in those terms. Yes, even if they came to study from elsewhere. If you start with a lie, nothing you say afterwards has any credibility.

    You guys on the other hand do what you do brilliantly and that includes saying when you don’t know and admitting when you get it wrong. That’s real scholarship.

  5. Brava.
    MA art history, MA costume history, ABD art history.
    Love you cited proper references and you cited them correctly.
    And I heard your excellent talk at CSA and have read your articles – you know your stuff.

    (I just wish you could site where to watch the film/movie/show … then again, there is Google)

    1. I am gobsmacked by this pretentious and petty email AND by your amazing, comprehensive, and kind reply. Reading it was a delight, and so much more than Oxford-London PhD deserved. Kudos!

      BTW I’m also a Boomer who loves Frock Flicks. We’re not all crabby know-it-alls; these probably exist in every generation.

      1. My favourite part of this dumb letter is that anyone here from any political stance can laugh at the Trump comparison.

  6. Sorry you had to go through this!
    As a regular reader your blog gives me happiness everyday and I really appreciate the effort you put into it (for free, as you mentioned).
    Also, as a person who has absolutely nothing to do with fashion history (I just like costume movies), I have learnt a lot reading your articles, and I feel a more educated and engaged when watching costume content. I feel you need to know the rules to break them and your articles about historical accuracy really helped me understand and appreciate the work of costume designers much more than before.
    So thank you !

  7. I needed that today. You brought it. Furthermore, to quote you:
    “And I’m sorry, but if you’re going to throw down, you’d better have some documentation.”
    I think that phrase is going to come in really handy in the next few months.
    And don’t forget the bergere hat (with a graves accent, but I can’t find it on my keyboard). I write books set in the mid 18th century, and all my heroines wear one at some point, because it’s just so bloody cute.

    1. also, the demand to brandish your qualifications is coming thick and fast on Facebook. I won’t do it. You had to here.
      That’s a student, or newly qualified person carried away by loyalty to The Spanish Princess. Mark my words, that’s what it is.

      1. Ooh, I hadn’t thought of that! Probably thinks that PFG can do no wrong. Good call.
        (Love all you FF ladies, BTW)

        1. PFG fans are the strangest breed. I got into a tiff with someone the other day who was insisting that Anne Boleyn would have loved reading The Other Boleyn Girl and been flattered by her depiction. You know, the books that tells us that she was a bigamist, betrayed her sister by stealing her child, slept with Henry almost immediately, and possibly slept with her brother.

      2. This! This person isn’t even a costume designer, just a wannabe. S/he’s lucky if s/he’s even completed Costume Design 101, much less ever worked on a show. The passion, wordiness, lack of specifics, offended pearl clutching, and general cluelessness all read “freshman” to me (whom I used to teach), and I say that realizing it’s deeply unfair to most freshmen.

      3. Sorry, the demand that I brandish my qualifications? Or this reader? I actually didn’t get into my own, since I felt like my work should stand on its own merit. I’m glad now that we’ve realized this person was trying to impersonate another (famous) designer who does have a PhD… which is a pretty shitty thing to do!

        1. Oh, her doing the demanding, not you, starting with, “As a PHD,” as if that made everything she said valid. It’s a common thing on social media, the battle of the qualifications! (I have a bunch of them, but I got them so long ago that they don’t really prove anything about me any more. So I don’t brandish).
          I don’t need to know yours, because it’s all there, on your blog. You know what you’re talking about, and you do it with wit and style. Like Christopher Wren’s epitaph in St. Paul’s – “Reader, if you seek his monument look around you.”
          It’s an extraordinary letter. Must have taken her ages. My money is still on her being a fan of something you’ve commented on, most likely PFG.
          BTW, if the world overwhelms me, I put on the first five minutes of Dangerous Liaisons. Cheers me up no end.

    2. I love the bergere hats too but never knew the name, so thanks for this! I googled it and now I’ve learned something today — one of the many reasons I love this website, I learn so much from the posts and the commenters.

  8. Well, you have my vote of confidence. I am a retired historian who has long been interested in historical fashion. And historical accuracy in film and television as far as possible. While accepting that some sacrifices have to made for accuracy, it does hurt when designers (or facts) get too far off mark. And where is Oxford University in London? I thought I knew the university well.

  9. My first thought on reading their letter was “Okay, Boomer”, not only because of what they wrote, but I also get the impression that this is an older person. My second thought is “They can fuck right off.” If they have such an issue with Frock Flicks, and Kendra specifically, why do they even bother reading it?

      1. Ya know, I thought about adding this but didn’t — I may save the long version for snark week. But THIS IS HOW PEOPLE WHO ARE EDUCATED ABOUT HISTORY/COSTUME TALK ABOUT FILMS & TV SHOWS. These filmmakers are just hearing (or reading) it for the first time. But travel back in time to 1975, and there were a few in-the-know people sitting around cackling about whatever period film was in the theaters.

    1. Please do not characterize “Boomers” in such terms. I am a certified (late) Bloomer, having been born in 1950. This is first I have ever heard that Bloomers do not like historical costume–I know of plenty who do, although I am probably the most fanatic in my set. I ADORE Frock Flicks, and especially the combination of snarkiness and the authors’ genuine knowledge of historical costume and cinema.

      I actually do have a PhD, although it has nothing to do with costuming. But I did once have a job with the Renaissance Pleasure Faire in San Francisco, where one of my tasks was to catalogue all their books for the library. I never really got it done, because I spent all my time reading the costume books. So you might call me a very, very minor “expert”.

      The original “Oxford” writer was nastier than she needed to be and the F.F. response was a masterpiece of good documentation, good humor, and, well, snarkiness.

      With all due respect,

      The Montrose Courtesan

      1. Have you seriously never heard the phrase “Okay, Boomer”? If not, please look it up.

        As I said, based on the style of writing, OP is definitely giving off the vibes that they’re older. And where did we say ALL older people hate historical costume?

  10. LOL! I fucking love you! And now my neck is sore from nodding along as I read your responses to this haughty glorified troll. I am ever more saddened by the slow death of humanity’s sebse of humor, quirkiness, and twisted but direct expressions of ideas and perceptions. Many have traded all of that in for a shiny, righteous pole up the ass and it’s very frustrating! The haters will hate while the rest of us laugh and perhaps live a little longer for it.

        1. When will people learn to never question a librarian on sources? We will bury you in them in the turn of a page.

  11. My library (I’m a director…lol) isn’t stuff. Nor do we “shuffle around books!”

    Love your rebuttal (and the blog, of course!)

    1. I’m just amused at the idea that anyone with a graduate degrees in the humanities would think that librarians “shuffle around books”. When last I was an undergrad book-shelver at a graduate humanities library the grad students (or at least the smart ones!) knew the value of the librarians!

      1. Exactly! The whole point of libraries is to preserve the collective knowledge to make accessible to others. Why would we object to our patrons making noise when they are enjoying learning and sharing with others?

        I may shush sometimes, but only when the older kids on the computers are making so much noise that this small preppies can’t hear the story being read.

  12. There’s a lot of internet available–why get so hung up on one site? I can only imagine writing something like this when I was a teen or just out of college (uni). Without justifying this quite rude and condescending email, I wonder if the writer would’ve been more able to let it go if we weren’t all shut up in our houses. That said, many cooped up people haven’t lashed out like this.

    I think this blog does a good job of taking into account a lot of factors, but of course you’re not going to mention every possible reason why the costume designer may not be responsible for things you’re critiquing every time. At any rate, this is the only blog I check regularly and I plan to continue doing so. It’s fun and informative, and I expect it will continue to be so, regardless of whether I always share an opinion expressed here (seriously, are we not grown ups anymore about that?).

    Keep up the good work, team.

  13. Man, not that I want you to get angry emails, but this response was delightfully fun to read! I love your research and your snark. I’m so happy to be a patron and support your excellent work in a small way. Keep the snark flowing!

  14. Wow, this was an amazeballs post for the “beginning” of the week – hopefully you’ll let us know if the person responds to this post!

  15. Ooh the tone of this is very familiar, I think I might know who wrote this! The condescending attitude is a lot like that used by a costume designer who was recently spouting off over Twitter about the TV shows of a British historian.

    1. After that line about Oxford University in London, I suspect it’s an American who likes to pretend they’re ever so English just because they once tried to bed someone from Cardiff and they think they look good in tartan.

      1. Either way it’s such a brilliant 2020 email. ‘The world is burning, disease ridden and being overtaken by nutbars but I know more about olde frocks than ye to the point that I took a whole day to write this when I should have been homeschooling my kids!!!’ 🤣🤦‍♀️

          1. I like to follow my 2 year old daughter’s current icon’s catchphrase and just….’let it go’. Apparently this chick (dude?) is not aware of the healing magic of watching Frozen and Frozen two over 900000 times. Sigh.

    2. This reminds me of when my alma mater referred to the then college president as “Our Notorious RBG” on the cover of the alumni magazine. Some idiot wrote in condemning the editors for comparing the president to a “thug rapper.” So they published the letter and noted the reference was to Ruth Bader Ginsberg. People like this deserve to be shown the error of their ways. Oxford in London indeed.

  16. Oxford University in London?!

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha noooope. This dingbat’s credibility just went down faster than Lady Chatterley’s drawers at the sight of Mellors.

  17. Yikes! Good job…and it is so easy NOT to read blogs you do not like…why stress yourself out? Write your own…

  18. I don’t think I have ever commented here (I am a lurker by default) but wow, this was a read and a half and I am utterly boggled at the entitlement of someone who though to email you all of that, ahem, ‘guff’.

  19. I read every single word and cheered you on from the sidelines.
    My bs radar went off when I read “Oxford university in London” and kept on bleeping.
    Continue what you’re doing x

  20. I came here for the snark and have learned a ton of stuff from you (and added to my movie binge list). Having had two moronic historic throw-downs at a living history event this past weekend, “I took two” (so there) is going to be my new historic throw-down mental mantra.

    Having said that, you and your collaborators are amazing and the site is wonderful – bask in the love from non-know-it-all’s who aren’t still suffering from costuming that college play and the Director didn’t agree with her vision so she had to lace all the dresses in the back.

  21. Jeebus, what an insufferable letter. If they hate the site so much, why are they bothering? They need to get a life or start their own website. I’m sorry y’all have to put up with this shite. You have many loyal readers who love you and your snark, it helps us get through the day.

    1. I wish there was a way to upvote because I love the passive aggressiveness of that. So petty. So delicious.

  22. Oh, bless their overwrought little hearts.

    I went on a UK grad-school researching kick a couple of years ago – in various disciplines – and I call bullshit on the letter-writers’ credentials. PhD in costume? Maybe. Oxford in London? Bwahaha. London grows inexorably p, but it hasn’t swallowed Oxford yet…

  23. “As a costume designer who has an PhD in fashion and textile from Oxford University in London…” I think not! LMAO! There is no specific costume course offered by Oxford University and it certainly isn’t based in London! From what I am aware, they only offer modules occasionally covering singular aspects of costume, when needed for a particular and wider subject – such as “The role of costume in Roman comedy”. They certainly do not offer a PHD or even a BA in the subject and I repeat again… certainly not in London. What a whooper to begin with. HOOT. I detect someone who wishes they had such a qualification getting a nefarious thrill through writing a large amount of crap regarding someone else’s well considered and researched work. Basically a rather frustrated and bitter person. You are ALL STARS and what you offer is educational, informative and at the same time highly amusing and engaging – a winning combination. I adored Kendra’s witty response and I hope that whoever wrote the original message reads it carefully, checking out all the links and learns a little more about considered and informed critique as well as developing a sense of humour – which I fear may be sorely missing at present.

  24. I know nothing about costumes except that I love to look at them and enjoy your site totally. after all today’s fashions are drab and shapeless in general. if this nasty person dislikes you so much, s/he should go elsewhere. there are many of us who love this escape from today’s news. thank you for doing what you do.

    1. Same here. I collect historical clothing and love this blog; my degrees are in English and the writer of this letter does not really speak like an educated person.

  25. The writer of this bilge certainly had their knickers in a twist. Your response was amazing and definitely made my day.

  26. Sorry you had to encounter this troll. Glad you provided your documentation. I’ll bet the writer has never actually MADE an 18th century garment. When I was really active in the SCA (with a Laurel in Costuming), I was asked to judge many competitions. If I got some dicey stuff to judge every now and then, and a fair amount of BS from competitors. I would just flutter my lashes and sweetly ask for documentation on whatever they were going on about. That usually shut them down.

  27. I knew once I read “Oxford University in London ” I was in for a treat. This did not disappoint! I’d be wary of going tête-à-tête with this obviously well-educated twatwaffle; I mean, they moved the 900-year-old university to accommodate their degree!

  28. Reading your response to this idiocy made me want to grab popcorn and soda. While the visuals were all in my mind, it was definitely a glorious smack down.

  29. Someone’s mistaken Karoline Zebrowska’s “Boobs” and “Actress in a Corset” videos for documentaries.

  30. Do some people not have a sense of humor anymore? Instead they have a chip on their shoulder, and are missing the whole point? Sad on them.
    Bravo for responding to that troll, which is the best I can give them.

  31. Oh, Lord! I echo ALL the positive remarks by the other commenters and will add this one: Another thing I appreciate about your posts is that you make time–explicitly and repeatedly–to address your raison d’etre, philosophy, attitude, approach, etc. Your POV is not hidden away on some hard to find page tucked away on this website (cf: all the self-citations and links in this particular response to the troll). I love those blog posts and have learned so much not only the costumes and the dress of their relative historical periods, but also your attitude and approach when addressing these films. I have to add these two grievances about the troll. NO ONE who has a PhD–whether or not they go on to teach in the academy–would: 1) dare to endorse that tired old saying, “Those who can do, those who can’t teach.” and 2) disrespect the work of librarians.

    You ladies are amazing, and so is this site. Keep on keepin’ on! Drown all memories of this troll with pink drinks while watching the next fab frock flick to review. Your fans can’t wait for the next fun, snarky, and informative review. Cheers!

    1. I have a PhD and am a history professor and I can confirm that NOBODY with a PhD would say either of those things! Librarians make our jobs possible!

  32. This is how I feel when someone tells me how to “science” properly, using some wiki article or FB post.
    Thanks for the entertainment, from the post and from the comments.

  33. Your sharing of well informed research compared to how a costume should have looked like in a movie/series is not only pleasing, but somehow vital for those who take costuming seriously. Unfortunately it is described here how period movies are not given nearly enough finances to recreate costumes in as much accuracy as necessary…which in my opinion, should be at least 40% or more of the allocated budget. I mean, why even bother making a period film with crap costume??? I have seen productions with zippers, and they were a hurting eye-sore! Anyways, be sure that you have a long queue of happy fans who appreciate your research…a lot!!!!

    1. Glad to hear it! We’re sympathetic to budgetary limitations! Just, again, because you couldn’t afford it doesn’t make it historically accurate.

  34. So… they came hear to learn and got mad instead?

    Pfft. This person either isn’t a costume designer or worked on a project you tore to pieces, after being so proud that they did their research first by watching The Tudors.

  35. Uff da – Bad Uff da to the person who felt that email was necessary, and Good Uff Da to your response :)

  36. Wow. It is amazing the amount of work they put in only to be so wrong! All three of you are some of my favourite people and don’t deserve any kind of vitriolic garbage like this. Absolutely adore this website and everything you ladies do <3

  37. Twit. Only twits attempt to critique others via gratuitous insults, as in, “Someone who loves to watch herself speak in front of a mirror since no one else pays that much attention to your waspish remarks.” (If I knew the twit better, I’d mutter, “Projection.”)

    Meanwhile, am watching “Jefferson in Paris.” Which is what I first thought this piece might refer to, given the image.

  38. Oh Kendra – you are a credit to your profession! And all the other fun hijinks you get up to!!

  39. I was annoyed on your behalf during the whole read and then I got to the library part. If this person where truly an academic then there would be no putting down of libraries.

    Great response to the whole thing! You ladies are the best!

  40. HOOBOY! What a nice read for an unseasonably cold and rainy day in MN. What an epic takedown. I am not a scholar, but I am a fan of good costuming. And good costuming and historical accuracy can walk hand in hand and still support the story and acting. I also love me some good old-fashioned snark! That is why I love and support (via Patreon) this site.

  41. I must confess the snitty side I generally try to tamp down is super curious if the letter writer has responded at all (presumably in email, rather than here).

      1. Wow, faking an email address? I wouldn’t know how to do that, and I imagine a lot of folks have never given it a second thought.. so not only did this person want to dress you all down (ha!), they didn’t want to have to listen to any answer or be accountable for their own errors. Sounds like a troll, tbh… probably getting a kick out of the hubbub, but what an asshat.

  42. I have the impression, that there was somebody maybe reading your blog for a month but don’t understanding, what you are writing. You are so often writing about the problems of costume-designers and write in depth if you know about details of the production. Therefore all the problems of the critic are hilarious.
    As I had the chance to be in some German productions (mostly documentaries) I got the the Impression, that Money in most cases is not the problem. You can have a very tiny budget but you can ask reenactors or collectors for help if you are not too much focused on yourself and recognize that there is in most parts of Europe (and the US) a reenactment-company for nearly every time period. To find the right persons is not too difficult today in times of the Internet. You can even ask a open air museum, where you maybe had found photos of events with very good reenactors on their Homepage and ask there to get connected with professional historians or talented not academic historians for extras with the complete extras (including costumes) or even the Chance to lend very well researched costumes. One example: https://wackershofenannodomini.blogspot.com/2020/06/ankundigungen-und-kurze-filme.html

  43. Just to add to everybody correctly deriding this person’s claim to have “an PhD in fashion and textile from Oxford University in London” (dont you just love that ‘an’ before the ‘PhD’, presumably inserted in the hope that it would give an impression of old-fashioned English scholarship?):

    In 2009 the Iranian parliament impeached their former Minister of the Interior, Ali Kordan; among the charges was that he had falsely claimed on his CV to have an honorary doctorate from ‘the University of Oxford in London’.


    The institution in London that really does teach costume design is the very highly-regarded London College of Fashion. A genuine holder of the LCF’s MA in costume design would hopefully have something worth saying and listening to. The fact that this poster evidently didn’t have a clue where in Britain to claim a degree from if you want costuming clout, and instead invented one that doesn’t exist, says all we need to know about this person’s credentials.

  44. Applied to Oxford and studied at London, and there are definitely no fashion or textile courses from Ox in London. Immediately disproved, disregard all else.

  45. Well, add another (Boomer, born 1955) voice to those deriding the letter-writer in general and an PhD in fashion and textile from Oxford University in London in particular. Oxford isn’t a campus university and does not have institutions based a hundred miles away. It’s a great university, but has no drama, textile or art history courses, not even of any kind. It’s the last place you would choose to study specialist costume history or performance costuming.

    There are some very distinguished places in the London area which specialise in fashion and textiles, but anyone who had studied there would be proud to name them, confident that they are in themselves a stamp of quality. This individual has very little grasp of the concept of “quality” at all and, it would see, only one textbook, nearly a century old.

    I happen to know someone who has just been awarded a doctorate from the Shakespeare Institute (part of Birmingham University but in Stratford-on-Avon), specialising in modern theatrical representations of the Tudor/Jacobean periods. (Mostly “theatre” in the British sense of live stage performance rather than film or TV.) She was sent to study with The School of Historical Dress (http://theschoolofhistoricaldress.org.uk/) and did a long placement at the V&A, working with actual clothes and costumes, as well as working at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust archives. That’s what an actual PhD in that area looks like!

    I think you handled the whining troll with impressive dignity. And citations. Who doesn’t love citations?

    1. Actually, some Oxford colleges offer the history of art, either on its own, or as a part of some classics degrees. https://www.hoa.ox.ac.uk/colleges
      You have to be careful, because the University of Oxford is the old Polytechnic, and also offers an excellent art history degree.
      No fashion courses, though. Nada.
      Everything else you said? Spot on. And yes, if the person had said they went to St. Martin’s in London, they’d be very proud of that.
      I did my history of art degree at Manchester Art School (now Manchester Met University).

      1. Oxford Brookes University is the former Poly; it’s the “other university” in Oxford as Anglia Ruskin is in Cambridge. Both admirable institutions despised by some of the students of their older cohabitees. And, yes, anyone with real costume credentials would be very proud of being from St Martin’s or, back in the day, Wimbledon. And people who know what’s what would recognise that.

      1. Ah, thanks for that. It must be relatively new, then – not an option when my daughter did the subject at UCL.

  46. I think she missed the entire point of your webpage. but then she’s from “oxford” in London (!) and as a Library employee, I can swear to it that we rarely “move dusty books around” we leave that to our minions aka student employees. most librarians spend their time in meetings, committees and overseeing departmental budgets of millions. (we also don’t spend all our time reading and collecting cats.)

  47. To state the obvious: By critisising bad costume choices, Frock Flicks is empowering another group of costume designers who happen to be brave enough to take a stand for historic accuracy …

  48. Long time reader, just simply had to come out of my lurk to say, what a masterful and unmitigatedly deserved roast. You have more patience than I.
    And I believe the term here called for is,
    “Supercilious little chit.”

  49. I think my favorite part of this whole take-down is your EXTENSIVE sourcing! As someone who really enjoys other people’s work in this field and occasionally dares to dabble a little myself, I’ll be mining this post for the rest of my life for those sources! And as an MLIS student, I a) appreciate the way you cited your sources (so many sources! <3) and b) was surprised that your critic had such a narrow, outdated view of what librarians actually do. Makes me wonder just how much (or how little) time that person has actually spent in libraries or archives.

    Keep up the good work – long my FF snark!

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